In reply to comments given on previous post
Thank you for your post/reply/comment:
FWIW, short and simple about matters is not always possible.
You wrote: The issue is not whether those verses are true, but whether they teach a two-stage coming of Christ. The early Church always taught one Parousia…
As a person commented earlier, the belief a gathering/calling out to the Messiah was a matter of belief and discussion in Judaism. Paul wrote,
1 Corinthians 1:1-2 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, (2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 2:12-20 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Why the verses? Just referencing that Paul was writing/speaking to the churches. Now if a person believes that the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ or what Paul calls “my gospel” then – and it will be arguably with some – he is talking and believes that a person who is born again during the age of the church, is a person who is placed in the body of Christ. That occurs at the new birth, immediately at the time the person is born again. That person now has the reality of eternal security (“perseverance of the saints”) and eternal life.
If a person has such a promise/reality/gift then what happens during the tribulation when with fear of loss of life or the hurt of their loved ones they take the mark of the beast? God’s word says those are cast into the lake of fire. So they are ripped out of the body of Christ? They never were eternally secure? They really didn’t have eternal life?
No – that can be. God is not going to put His only begotten Son through any further pain and damage. His sacrifice is complete. No, God is not going to rip a saint/member out of the body of Christ. Ok, so God lied. NO!! Then what? A translation of the born again, which are members in the body of Christ allows for the integrity of God’s word and doctrine.
Now someone may say Paul was writing prior to John writing the Book of Revelation (AD 96) and that would be true. But Paul doesn’t need the fact of the mark of the beast and so on for a person to lose salvation, he can look at one’s own works each and every day – and even those who say they don’t believe anymore. He believed in eternally secure, eternal life. We know Paul was a devout Pharisee so it safe to believe he believed in the argued Jewish doctrine of a gathering of the Jews with the Messiah. So to my understanding he believed in a church/born again translation that was to occur prior to God’s judgement on the lost and Israel specifically.
2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So yes, Paul believed in the rapture/translation of the church/born again. “…wherefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:18
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
You wrote: Yes, Enoch is a foreshadowing of resurrection and life. But no Father of the Church ever used him as a type of a pre-trib rapture. He was taken up because he pleased God, not to establish a two-stage return of Christ.
Why couldn’t God do both? When Paul was in the desert being taught by the Lord Jesus Christ don’t u believe God taught him with types? Take for example Sara and Hagar and how Paul gave light to those and us using types when writing about the two covenants. You see Peter using types from the OT to show light when he is writing about the “living stone” and “chief cornerstone” or when he referred to “the like figure” in 2 Peter 3:21. Why wouldn’t Enoch being a type of something that God hid (a mystery) until the age of the church have been determined by God who knows everything as a tool/type the He would shed light on about when the time was right?
You wrote: That interpretation is not found in any of the early Church Fathers. Revelation 4:1 describes John being taken up “in the Spirit” to receive a vision. The text does not say the Church disappeared from earth. In the following chapters the Church is still present, described as “saints” and “those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus”.
You wrote: That framework is not in Paul, John, or the Fathers. It first appears with Darby in the 19th century.
But if it was not a teaching of what you reference as the church fathers, I do not know. But I do know this, that these so-called early church fathers are people that introduced many wrong vocabulary and doctrines into the church age. And from these is then what is the Roman Catholic Church and Greek Orthodox Church. Roman CC) is what people consider Christianity and yet it is also this “church” that has for centuries killed the people who believed as I do. It is them that have wrote the “church” history which considered people like me as a heretic. It was their preachers who were murdered. Their writings burned. How much evidence of what my post is about was destroyed by them? I am sure a lot.
Let’s say for the sake of argument that you are correct, the translation of the saints before the start of the tribulation is a teaching that came from the studying of Mr. Darby. So what? Do you not agree that Martin Luther had “more light” than the so referenced early church fathers? Calvin – the murderer, ditto. You don’t think God is at work in the body of Christ and can, does and will give light on the bible as one study and prays for light? Hmm, I bet a study of the hymns of the church would shed interesting light on this topic.
Translation of the church otherwise known as rapture
The idea that what is popularly called the Rapture (which a scriptural term would be “translation”) is a theory only recently believed in the past hundred years is not at all accurate. Bible believing Christians have believed this doctrine since the time of Paul.
In the book of Genesis, before the flood, we read:
Genesis 5:17-24 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. (18) And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch: (19) And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: (20) And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died. (21) And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: (22) And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: (23) And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: (24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
So before the flood, God translated Enoch so he would not die nor suffer during the period of time leading up to the judgment with the flood.
His testimony is that he pleased God. He walked with God.
In 1 Corinthians 15 we read:
1Co 15:49-57 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul saying not everyone that is saved (born again) is going to die, some will be translated. They will be mortals and suddenly, twinkling of an eye, changed >>> immortal (translation).
That is the foundation for the teaching that has been believed by millions of Christians since the time of Christ.
The mix-up comes because of the ref “at the last trump” above in verse 52 and here too in verse 16:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
In the Bible, a verse can have a devotional/spiritual, practical and doctrinal application. Where the verse is in the context (so the events going on or in the discussion of something future for example). IMHO the issue comes when people misunderstand the doctrine and as well miss out the a practical can happen in more than one way (in this example: translation).
In the belief that a translation will occur before the period of the tribulation and great tribulation occur. The witness/example of Enoch points at this as well as the explanation up to this point. Is an example present anywhere again in the Bible about this? Yes.
If you read the book of Revelation you will see in the first three chapters the constant reference to church and churches.
What you read in Revelation 4:1-2 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
From Revelation 3 – 22:15 there is ZERO references to church/churches – the church (the bride of Christ) is missing from the earth and the events that occur. In verse 16-17:
Revelation 22:16-17 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
The apostle John is known as the disciple that Jesus loved which is how he referred to himself in the gospel of John. John is also the disciple that was at Jesus’ heart during the Lord’s Supper that occurred before the crucifixion. John in the scripture is a “type” of the body of Christ. (“Type” meaning a symbol/reference of some spiritual/scriptural truth).
The doctrine is this is John is translated in Revelation 4:1 and is standing before the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord then reveals to him what is going to occur in the future. So the church is gone at Revelation 4:1 because those that are born again/saved have been translated; either corruption to incorruption OR mortal to immortality (1 Cor. 15:49-57 ). During this period of time (the tribulation and great tribulation); God judges Israel for its sins while also dealing with all other races – (gentiles) for rejecting the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. During that time MANY people will confess, repent (change their ways) and believe God now. To believe God now means the individual will not take the mark of the beast. This is likely th one that will be tied to Israel’s Feast of Trumpets.
God prefers to operate in mercy as long as it does not violate His holiness. Because of that, in the middle of the tribulation period, just before the great tribulation period (which is a period of 3 ½ years), He calls up (translates) all those during this period of time (after the church is gone and before the great tribulation) believed on Him, obeyed by not taking the mark. It is likely that this is the LAST trump referred to by Paul.
So back to Enoch and he walked with God and pleased God. To please God now, first, you must believe the gospel. You believe Him or you call Him a liar.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 4:22-25 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (23) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; (24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; (25) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
John 3:33-36 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. (34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (35) The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. (36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 John 5:7-13 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. (10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (11) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Well?
Remember I have posted what is going on is a spiritual issue? Do you remember the recent applause and celebrations for the murder of Charlie Kirk? Do you remember the support and so-called justification for his murder?
Do you still not agree that this is A SPIRITUAL ISSUE?
unholy paradigm
What is going on?
my two cents
Hope, Levity and Wonder 